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Message of captain bill - Sent 14 Sep 8:09 |
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Alitalia have announced that due to the failuar of talks on Friday September 12 to re-finance the company they may not be able to provide flights on Monday September 15.
This is due to their on going financial problems, the high price of oil and the general state of the economy.
It will be truely sad if Alitalia go next.
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Message of speedbird9468 - Sent 14 Sep 13:40 |
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This is unreal. this week XL and now one of the EU majors. I read that they didn't have enough dough to pay for fuel. In addition this will send ripples accrooss their destinations and the cleaners/caterers at those airports won't want to service the aircraft
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Message of Freshbrook - Sent 14 Sep 20:25 |
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Alitalia should be allowed to go bust, in fact they ARE bust. They are losing 1.5 million UK Pounds PER DAY. They were propped up by an illegal subsidy from the Italian government which has been investigated by the EU authorities but no action has been taken nor any decision released. I can't imagine the UK government getting away with that.
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Message of speedbird9468 - Sent 15 Sep 23:53 |
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Its not nice to see that Freshbrook And Its not nice to see an airline go under with all the loss of jovbs etc etc. If they are loosing as much as you say then some contigency plan should be drawn up. But on the other hand is it bad mangement or oil prices or both. As I understand it this has been going on for a few years. So I see as a mor managerial problem than oil price problem. Maybe something like 60%/40%
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Message of Freshbrook - Sent 15 Sep 17:14 |
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I quite agree with you, SPEEDBIRD9468, it is not nice when airlines face difficulties and employees are made redundant.
I am certain that AZA will survive, as it is politically unacceptable for a State airline to go under. The Italian govt has said as much.
Today's news is of a rescue package put together by 4 of the NINE (!!!!!) unions representing AZA employees along with a consortium (CAI) prepared to invest one billion euro (about 1.4 billion $US) in a re-vamped AZA. This would ensure that passengers will continue to fly AZA. The other five unions are not party to the arrangement and have rejected it. Pilots are particularly angry about the number of pilots being retained under the rescue plan.
AZA already has 34 aircraft (MD80s) withdrawn from use.
Strong unions, national pride and weak government over the years have already caused AZA fatal injury. Fuel prices and a downturn in western economies are the last straw.
As I have already said, AZA will survive, hopefully smaller and more efficient, but the unions are going to have to make major concessions for that to happen.
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Message of speedbird9468 - Sent 15 Sep 21:01 |
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Well that is good news. Letsd just hope that they can get it right. also good to see that it is still flying. One thing that concerns me though. I didn't realize that AZA was a GOVT controlled airline. My question would be. Is htis a good thing or a bad thing? I'm sure there are many GOVT owned airlinesand TAP springs to mind and they appear to be ok.
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Message of Freshbrook - Sent 16 Sep 16:41 |
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Message of speedbird9468 - Sent 17 Sep 0:40 |
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Its nothing personnel Freshbrook but I never trust wikipedia. I am a teacher and used to use it a lot for some info and research. I found out my my own stupidness that it is not always correct
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Message of FLX - Sent 17 Sep 14:40 |
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IMHO, AZ will follow closely to the history and final downfall of SABENA.
Gov't controlled(directly or indirectly) flag carriers can be good or bad depending on your particular political orientation/priority. In principle, it's bad if U're more of a right-wing/Conservative/Republican type who believes the mkt should decide if and when an airline should survive or die, not the gov't. It's good if U're more of a left-wing/Liberal/Democrat type who believes the gov't should interve and choose which airlines to survive or die, not the mkt.
There're also harsh & complicated realities to consider. EK and SG are effectively gov't controlled but both are @ the top of the game today. With no domestic mkts as a stepping stone, would they've survived without gov't support+protection 20-30yrs ago facing far more mature Int'l competitors right from the start? I seriously doubt it. On the other hand, the U.S. is still the biggest aviation mkt with some of the biggest airlines in the world yet the gov't is rarely involved. In fact, the U.S. gov't hv been consistently doing the opposite pushing stuff like deregulation, openskies, anti-trust, etc. to ensure more mkt-driven competition. Any carriers can fly transatlantic as often as they wish whether they're registered in the EU or U.S. I know U.S. carriers generally hv inferior services but they(Both management and unions) are among the most financially disciplined airlines on earth precisely due to flourishing competition. Lots of Americans love PanAm(Effectively the flag carrier of the U.S. and its pride for so many yrs) yet the gov't couldn't care the less and let it went down the drain 20yrs ago when it became non-competitive.
The truth is that AZ's unions hv grown out of touch with today's global aviation mkt realities(Much like PanAm and Sabena were) when the smarter EU majors(LH,AF-KLM,BA,etc.) and their unions hv already been trying hard to adapt. Worst of all, AZ unions know their gov't must buy their votes for the nex election and will do whatever to provide<FREE LUNCH>to them. I suspect some AZ union workers are not that concern about losing their jobs anyway since generous social security will kick-in(Another incentive for the gov't to save AZ @ all cost). It's a win-win situation for AZ unions.
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Message of Freshbrook - Sent 17 Sep 20:44 |
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SPEEDBIRD9468 - It is getting a little off topic but I can agree with your sentiments re Wikipedia. I have had some doubts about some of its content on non-aviation subjects. I think they post what other people have said or written rather than do the research themselves.
From what I read on their AZA piece, I reckon they had the history about right. I have been following this saga for years, and it doesn't get any better.
FLX - Yep, a severe dose of reality is what it needs. Maybe we could export a little Wall Street realism down Rome way.
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Message of FLX - Sent 18 Sep 14:46 |
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Hi all,
In my last post on this thread, I meant EK(Emirates) and SQ(SingaporeAir), not EK and SG.
Freshbrook:
With the difficulties @ Lehman, Merill Lynch and AIG, Wall Street realism is gonna be a tough sell to any Europeans these days....
I think the choice facing Italians is pretty simple now: Will AZ be a pure social service or a pure commercial enterprise in today's global aviation mkt? Mkt competition & environment are so fierce @ this point that the days of half-breed, neither here nor there approach to national airline industry policy are pretty much over for countries without deep pockets(Unlike UAE and Singapore). I mean, if Italians want AZ to be a social service(e.g. job-security, unprofitable routes, feel proud about the flag on the tail, etc.), they should expect their tax $ will continue to finance increasingly heavy losses without an end in sight+a heavy fine from Brussels. Their airline, their choice. On the other hand, if Italians want AZ to be a pure commercial airline(e.g. Drastically downsized workforce, route rationalization, feel richer due to less tax $ wasted, etc.), they should a expect a tiny but stronger AZ primarily playing domestic+feeder role to other EU majors which need much less gov't support.
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